Oh, that sounds like a good idea for sky elves. In that case, would sky elves differ from the ee'aar? Or perhaps the Ee'aar assimilated Aeryl's clan, and eventually they all became ee'aar. That could be viable if sky elves have dominant genes, right?

I like the flexibility too. Having them living in the sky makes them mobile, and gives them access to the whole world - although I do wonder why the Princess Ark never collided with any cloud giant castles or faedorne shining isles!

Perhaps it would make sense to link the Rainbow Path to the faedorne and the sky elves...

There is one minor problem, though... Why would Ordana create a race of creatures who don't have anything to do with greenery and nature?

I have a solution there too, though: perhaps Ordana made a deal with the faedorne. In order to get them to care for and teach her newly created elven race, she created another adapted form of elves who could live with and serve the faedorne. That would serve Ordana as well as the faedorne.

Over time, the sky elves prospered and outgrew their masters, forcing some of them to leave the faedorne and find new homes when their population became too great.

I would prefer to keep Aeryl as a winged elf, too. Perhaps she went on a quest to the realm of the faeries, and met sky elves there. She could have been rewarded her wings for the fulfillment of her quest, and returned to her people with a clan of sky elves, who then intermingled with Aeryl's clan, causing the majority of the clan to become ee'aar in just a generation or two.

I reckon I put out too many ideas at once, but that's the deal with brainstorming
So let's start again.

1. WHY did Ordana create sea and sky-elves?
We know Ordana created the first land-dwelling elves and I theorized therefore that she could have created also sea and sky elves. However the question about why an immortal so fixed with woods did create a race which didn't dwell in forests is a pertinent one.

Look at what we find in PC3, Sea People when talking about Aquarendi (page 20):

"The aquatic elves are known as the Aquarendi and can be found throughout the oceans of the world. they prefer to live close to other elves whenever possible"

"Originally creatures of the sea, the aquatic elves left the waters to live upon the land, where they flourished along with the land elves in Evergrun... ...In time, the elves met traders from Blackmoor who told them of the great achievements of the Blackmoor culture. The elves that were later to be known as the Aquarendi saw the error of the elvish race in accepting the technological ways of Blackmoor... ...Altough some elves listened, the majority ignored the Aquarendi, calling them fools and dremaers. Anxious to escape the impending holocaust the Aquarendi called on the Immortals of Time to aid them. They were answered by Manwara... ...Manwara restored to the Aquarendi the ability to breathe and live underwater [BC3100]. The Aquarendi departed from their kin with great sorrow and entered the warm seas. Never very large in number, the Aquarendi dropped from the pages of Elven Chronicles: their existence was forgotten entirely in the years of suffering that followed the destruction of Evergrun and Blackmoor."

So you see, they called on the powers of Time, and ONLY MANWARA did answer! Ordana was the elves' patroness, Calitha was probably a young immortal by that time, but ONLY MANWARA answered!
WHY?

THEORY 1.
Maybe Ordana did not create them. MAYBE they were created by Calitha as part of the path of the Dynast. She took her clan with her and went to dwell in the sea in BC 3700. When she disappeared, many returned to Evergrun in BC 3500. Later while traveling through time, she reappeared and helped them survive the GRoF by making them pray Manwara to obtain again the ability to live underwater in BC 3100. That's why they didn't pray Ordana or Calitha: they wanted to return to the sea (and Calitha was not an immortal by that time).

If we go on with this theory, we need to find another creator for sky elves. But maybe there are no sky elves at all, and the ee'aars were indeed the first and only clan of winged elves, gifted by the faeries on behalf of Aeryl. This means winged elves are restricted only to the Immortals' Arm, and possibly the realm of the Faeries.

THEORY 2.
Ordana did create all of the elven races and left them to the faedorne's guardianship for a time.
Being an immortal not just fixed with woods but with nature in general, she later transplanted them in 4 different environments to see where they could flourish better. So you have wood elves (in Evergrun and Skothar), sea elves (Aquarendi), sky elves (ee'aars in the Sky Kingdom), and mountain elves (Hatwa of Davania).

We are free to choose or add more theories.

2. THE Sky Kingdom
Let's face it: it IS a reality, since that's the place where Faeries and Cloud and Storm giants live. So are there really physical clouds with cities and gardens built atop on Mystara, or are we merely talking about another plane (plane of Air or outer planes)?

I believe there ARE wandering chunks of clouds that have been rendered solid and fertile through magics, which comprise the so-called Sky Kingdom.
Since they drift on magical currents (prolly akin to the currents that follow the floating continents in the Hollow World) and that they are not huge (the biggest are as large as one of Karameikos' baronies) there is little chance for flying ships (which are not really abundant anyway) to meet them, unless they discover their course. And obviously, the fact that they exist very high in the atmosphere, prolly above 15000', makes them all the more difficult to discover (since I doubt the flying ships sail that high to avoid air loss).

That could solve the issue "why nobody ever noticed them"

The issue of the ee'aars origins still remains... as well as their base of worship (Ordana? Simurgh? Odin? Brom? Palartarkan?).
I'm open to suggestions..

I kind of like your first theory, but I also like this one: Manwara saw what Ordana did, and said, "Those elves are pretty neat - I want some." So he made the first aquatic elves, but they didn't hold his attention as much as he thought and he gradually abandoned them. At that point they ventured out onto land looking for a new patron. When they started praying again, he felt guilty for having abandoning them and gave them one last gift, the return of their aquatic abilities in order to survive the cataclysm, but by that time they had mainly started following Calitha so they never really returned to Manwara (except, perhaps, for a small cult - there's always a small cult).

The same thing could have happened for sky elves, some other deity might also have wanted to get in on the fun, but again weren't as dedicated to the upkeep of their new race so they never flourished. In this theory Ordana still gets credit as the originator of the elves, and the other branches are merely copies made by other Immortals who liked the race, making it fitting that they're more obscure.

I love that!

With all the talk of possible creators for the various sub-species of elf, I remembered how I've wished there were more groups and cliques of Immortals such as the ones shown in the WotI Codex book. The more and varied these relationships, the possiblity for Immortal-level politics and Intrigue. We could have a group of three (or four, if including the mountain elves) Immortals who came together to create these various elves for some reason.

This still leaves many options from this point on. Is the group still active? Was there a falling out? I know DM has a very good understanding of the inter-relations between Immortals and might be able to use this.

I was under the impression that the Ee'aar were Avariel? AFAIK, there is no substantial difference between the two.

I like the ideas about the Sky Elves, but I still would like them more abundant in small tribes where there is remote mountains. Like the Mengul, although surrounded by other nations, they aren't very accessible. I agree about their scarcity, but not limiting them to the Arm of the Immortals really. I think they should be spread out more. They can fly afterall and when their population outgrows the remote regions they live, some may travel abroud to found new tribes or colonies. Maybe one in Wendar is only two or three generations old (still quite a bit in elf years)?

This makes perfect sense. Mountainous regions are generally very limited in the population it can support. Once resources are burdened, the elves would be likely to organize a group to migrate in search of a new home. And being fliers (and elves; i.e. patient, picky, and curious), they very well could travel considerable distance.

Other things could cause them to move as well. Humanoids like mountains (or get stuck with them until they can attack whoever possesses the land at the foot of the mountains). I'd doubt the winged elves would want to put up much of a fight. They are less prolific then humanoids so would be outnumbered and probably are not greatly attached to the land; only being there for a generation or two, if that.

I don't get WHY we should have winged elves everywhere, frankly speaking.
We don't have elves in Skothar, we don't have many elves left in Davania (only Hatwa), we don't have elves in Ochalea or the Pearl Islands. So what's the deal with winged elves everywhere?

Also, ee'aars cannot sustain flying for long periods of time, and they're not famous for their stamina. What makes you think they would move every time there are problems from one location to another? not counting the fact that elves have to eat, so if it's difficult for humans to live on mountains, it'll be as much difficult for elves too (they don't live on thin air, mind you? )

Anyway, I suppose we may go with the idea that Ordana created the first elves, and Protius created his own version of sea-dwelling elves in a sort of competition with her.
Later the sea elves (Aquarendi) abandoned him, so he turned away from them. Then Calitha, one of these Aquarendi, grew earthsick and strove to return to the sea. She managed to convince most of her kin to ask Manwara to forgive them and restore their aquatic abilities. At the end of her quest, she succeeded and the Aquarendi returned in the oceans (BC3100). This was the beginning of her Path of the Dynast. Later she guided the aquatic elves (Aquarendi) and the descendants of the land Aquarendi (Meditor) to create their own kingdom by traveling through time in 3 different periods, and she ascended to immortality after the Meditors finally settled in reformed Minrothad isles and the Aquarendi went to live nearby (between BC 2000 and BC 1700). That solves the problem of sea elves as we know them (underwater and above water).

Now on to the sky elves. again 2 theories come to my mind.

1. The Faerie Bargain
The Ee'aar clan decides to settle in the Immortals' Arm in BC 2300, when Ilsundal's migration crosses the Strait of Izonda and reaches Brun.
However, in BC 1310 the humanoids led by Wogar move south-westwards from Urzud and arrive in the Savage Coast and in the Immortals' Arm. Here they threaten the elven civilization.
Aeryl clan lives in the forested plains of the the eastern Arm of Immortals (now occupied by orcish tribes), so she tries to do her best to protect them. She asks the ancient elven protectors to help them, and the faedorne answer. Aeryl travels to the realm of the faeries and she bargains with them. The faeries come down and help the elves resist the humanoids' pressure, but it's not enough. In order to survive they are granted a wish by the faeries: in exchange for eternal loyalty and assistance against the storm giants, they'll be granted wings to reach the highest peaks and survive there. So the winged ee'aars are created around BC 1250.

2. Spawn of Brom
The ee'aar were created as sky elves by Brom, patron of cloud and storm giants, in an attempt to emulate Ordana's children. The ee'aars were created as a servitor race to dwell in the Sky Kingdoms around BC 3500. After many centuries, a group of ee'aars led by young Aeryl refused to obey her master's wills and rebelled. They killed all their masters and gained control over one of the Sky Baronies. When the other Storm giants came to know, they dispatched armies to quell the rebellion and bring justice over the treacherous elves. At this point, the elves of Aeryl abandoned the Sky Kingdoms and retreated in the mountains of the Immortals' Arm under the protection of the elven immortals Eiryndul and Ilsundal (say around BC 1000) founding their kingdom and mingling with sparse elven clans living there (descendants of some elves who split from Ilsundal's migration in BC 2200). Ever since they have dwelt there, befriending the winged enduks and keeping an eye against possible retaliations from the Sky Kingdom.

Opinions?

I like the Faerie Bargain idea, personally. And I like your explanation of Protius creating the aquatic elves, too. We seem to be having lots of interesting discussions about the origins of elves lately.

In any case, just a little reminder that this whole discussion spawned from an innocent suggestion to add a tribe of two of ee'aar to Wendar. I'd like to get our discussion back on track, and I think there are a few posts on the last page that are still waiting for answers.

Which questions do you mean, Thorf?
And speaking of questions, I was wondering where does the name Dawnblossom-Qvar come? I mean, is it elvish or common? What should it mean exactly? It would be like say calling a city in England Whitebridge-Shinsei... how's it possible??

Dawnblossom-Qvar is the refugee halfling/dwarf village. The idea was that they couldn't agree on a single name, so they used a double barrelled name consisting of the halfling Dawnblossom plus the Dwarven Qvar.

Edit: This reminds me, we still desperately need to "normalise" the place names for Wendar. It's a big priority for me, since it affects the map quite a lot.

Unanswered questions: sorry if some of these sound a bit tedious, most of them came up while I was editing the stuff from this thread. (By the way, these weren't all aimed just at Marco. Anyone should feel free to chip in!)

1. I've edited the following paragraph slightly to fit the map, but I was wondering if the line about there being many shrines was still valid? Obviously the forest now includes one of the big 9 shrines, but there aren't any others currently marked. Can we assume this refers to smaller shrines, or should we cut the line?

2. How much are the centaurs part of Wendar? To what extent do they participate in the government? Do they show themselves outside their village or the forest? Are they known to the elves or do they remain another secret of the evil woods?

3. Marco's description of the roads leading into Wendar refers to two passes, Kevar Pass and the Elven Pass. Kevar Pass is an actual mountain pass, but the Elven Pass is in fact a path, passing between the end of the Wendarian Range and the edge of the Adri Varma Plateau. Is it okay to still call this a pass?

4. (Not so much of a question as a proposal...) Marco, it seemed like you had some sort of secret in mind for these shrines. It seems to me that this could be an excellent opportunity to give some more depth to our gazetteer and insert some really cool secrets.

So far we know that the shrines combine with the Elvenstone to form a protective net around Wendar. Let's develop this idea a bit more, and tie it in to the history.

Presumably the Elvenstone was lost at some point after the Korrigans gained Immortality, so it seems likely that Wendar had some sort of "Golden Age" back when the Korrigans were still mortals. Their creation of the Shrines of the Nine and the Elvenstone surely have various effects on the surrounding lands.

One idea would be to give each shrine a set of effects, which are applied to the lands around each shrine, diminishing in effect the further away from the shrine you go. Alternatively each shrine could "project" these effects inward, because many shrines are located close to the borders.

These effects could be subtle, for example making those in the radius of effect more caring towards nature, or influencing them towards certain activites or beliefs. They could even have effects similar to the Elfstone, and gradually change all Wendar's inhabitants into elves!

What effect does the tenth shrine have? This could explain the situation in the Baamor Woods a little more, too.

All in all, I think these shrines together with the Elfstone could be the key to the whole region, around which everything can be built and moulded.

5. (And this is the most important one!) I'm not entirely sure how to continue with this project. There is obviously a lot of work to be done in order to bring it anywhere near completion, but I don't think I am really the right person to be leading it. Marco, you are clearly the godfather when it comes to Wendar, and I get the feeling that you have a strong concept in mind for Wendar - around which everything else should be built. But at the same time, you seem to have your hands pretty full with other major projects (and real life commitments) too.

I wonder, how should we proceed from here?

I'd love to see all of this too! Just can't get enough info on Wendar recently.

I'd be especially interested in what Geoff wrote about skiing, since I have always envisioned the Kogolors as big skiers. The rules could be useful there as well as in Wendar.

uhm... doesn't sound that good to me.. I mean the name is nice, but it's not a good idea. Does this mean that the halfling language is ENGLISH? Coz you translated the dwarvish into Qvar but left the hin part in English...
Uhm.. hadn't noticed that. Well, we should just rephrase it because there's only ONE shrine of the Korrigans in Korrigan forest. UNLESS we want to call the 9 shrines something different, like say TEMPLE (that could be another viable solution). So we could have 9 major temples, and many smaller shrines as simple worship places (like standing stones or menhirs).

They should be considered subject to Wendar's laws since they dwell inside the nation (if they commit a crime in one of Wendar's settlement they should be punished for that), and obviously the elves know about them. However, the centaurs stay in their own villages and their elders rule using ancient traditions as guidelines. I still don't know if they're on friendly terms with elves and humans or not (if not, they could be subject to Idris's policy of hatred).
Is it? Wasn't I referring to the pass near Everyway Tower? Bad memory, I'm confused
It's ElvenSTAR for Idris's sake!
Anyway, the basic idea I had is that the Korrigans awakened the power of nature tapping into the magical nodes they created (ley lines). In order to summon and control the power of the land, they crafted the Elvenstar which has various powers inside Wendar, including:
* animating plants
* conjuring and controlling animals
* protecting from disease those inside the mystical net
* giving the elves a permanent blessing (bonus to Saves and Hit rolls)
* summoning nature's spirits (elementals and spirits like those of Ethengar)
Yes, they lost it somehow in the past, and was later recovered by Bensarian. I dare say the loss of the Elvenstar may be something recent anyway, in order to stay true to the few canonic info on Wendar's history.
My idea is that in fact each shrine's keeper also has the power to tap onto each individual shrine's magic to produce some effects which cannot stretch very far from it (say 1 mile radius max). These effects should be connected somehow to each Korrigan, so to make them varied and make each Keeper more in line with the others' relic keepers. Also this way each Keeper is important and necessary inside the elven community, a role which could instead be useless if all the power was concentrated in the Elvenstar properly.
Well, this is still a mystery, but it has something to do with necromancy, undeath, negative energy and raw chaos.

Hey hey ! You saw what happened when we made this Wendar team, Shawn, Geoff and I? I was technically in charge, and in the end nothing came out! I think we'll just follow the flow and see what we come up with, and if needs be we'll take decisions together

Speaking of which, I had a flash yesterday. What if we call the Forest of Shadows (a common enough name) Forest of the Elders instead? It could be related to Eldars(elders) and dragons still living there, and obviously the Foxwoods could be part of it, with Shadowmere not that far.

Well, what do GAZ6 and GAZ8 do? Should follow their example.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger.

Anyway, unfortunately the hin language is apparently indeed English, going by many of the Five Shires names - Shireton, Fishtickle, Stillpool, Shadowgates, Leadkindle, Deepmoss, etc. Granted there are also those such as Tothmeer, Sateeka, Wereskalot, Aergruth, and of course the old names Shaerdon and Faerdinel (if I'm remembering right), but the precedent is definitely there for something like Dawnblossom.

Personally I have a much bigger problem with the Dwarven bit, since I don't recall any Dwarven names with q (which should be k), and "kv" doesn't seem like a viable consonant pairing for Dwarvish. I would suggest something like "Kavar" instead.

Nope, I'm not a fan of unpronounceable names. Not at all.

And no pointless punctuation either.

Temple doesn't sound right - it conjures up images of crowds of people... I liked shrine because it rhymes with nine, but we could find another word altogether if you like.

In any case, it would probably be easier to change the names of the other shrine, for example Nione's Memorial or even just Nione's Statue (and use a statue symbol).

The other alternative is still to change the symbol, and that will likely follow naturally if we decide to change the word shrine.

It does seem more interesting if they are at least on neutral terms. And it could add a bit of spice to the setting to have them in contact with each other - perhaps cautious trading, or an ancient agreement to aid each other in times of dire need.

Remember though that they are the only non-evil inhabitants of the Dark Woods. There has to be a reason for that, and there also has to be a reason why they haven't been corrupted by Idris. (Or haven't they? :schemes

(About Elven Pass...) Yes it is (not a mountain pass), and yes you were referring to the pass near Everway Tower: they're one and the same.

There is actually a place nearby where the border on both sides is forested hills, but the forested hills on the Glantrian side are blocked in on all other sides by mountains, so it's hardly a good place for a pass.

Oops, sorry. :embarrass

Interesting. I hope you're going to do a full writeup of it at some point.

I meant before that. Basically I'm wondering why Wendar wasn't more united in the long years before the modern era, if they had access to the Elvenstar the whole time. Admittedly the Elvenstar by itself isn't the answer to all their worries, but presumably the Korrigans united the country, and it fragmented after they left, right?

That would also provide the Wendar clans with clan relics, with which to do the standard clan relic type stuff that elves do. I like keeping those options open, since it's kinda one of the definitions of being a D&D elf. The Elvenstar alone would not be enough to provide for all the elves in Wendar.

(The Tenth Shrine...) Interesting. I'm definitely looking forward to hearing more about that whenever you're ready.

Yes sir Mr DM.



Okay, I hear you. Right now we have the project out in the open and running full steam, so I guess I should bite the bullet and keep editing stuff together and nagging you and everyone else with questions.

That sounds fine, although doesn't the mileage there vary on whether we consider the Eldar to be canonical or not? What is your conception of them in regards to this?

It does give us a little more to work with atmosphere wise than "Forest of Shadows", which as you say is a bit of a generic name.

More later, I'm being told to hurry up and come to bed and go to sleep.

PS - I had to edit out your smileys before it let me post. Apparently collectively we use too many smileys for people to cope with, Marco! (Insert wink here)

I am exceedly fond of the name Dawnblossom-Qvar. The hin were probably the most blatant reuse of Tolkien in Mystara- everything from names, how they live, physical descriptions- we should just call them for what they are- hobbits. Since hobbits in Tolkien's world were the based on English countryfolk, the english names (with a rustic feel) for hin related places and things are incredibly appropriate and consistant with canon information on the hin.

I agree, but I'd change it to Dawnblossom-Kavar.

Kavar is fine with me, but dwarves are the red-headed step-children in our campaign, so I leave that up to those who are more familar with Mystara's dwarves .

Yes, just a tribe or two. Recently moved form another locale. No need ot have them everywhere. All I wanted was a few in Wendar, and maybe some scattered from there to the Arm of the Immortals in remote mountain locations. There don't have to be any on Davania or Skothar or any islands for all I care.

I agree. The Ee'aar have not been on the Immortals' Arm all that long, given elven lifespans, and I think it's an enormous stretch to think that they have had to keep relocating again and again, far enough to reach Wendar. Brun and Alphatia have a LOT of elves as it is--I don't see any compelling reason to keep adding more.

Even if we decide that there are flying elves all over in the sky kingdom, I still don't see why the Mengul Mountains would be where they would choose to settle. If they are simply looking for an isolated mountainous area in the general neighborhood, it seems like there are much better choices:
--Windreach in the Wyrmsteeth (I think natives of the Sky Kingdom would have to be on at least reasonably good terms with some dragons)
--All the mountains in Glantri (including the Wendarian Range): fewer hostile humanoids, and more magic to research
--Remote mountains and hills in the Heldannic Territories: this area is very remote, but I don't think it has the goblinoid population of the Mengul
--The Kurrish Massif: more hospitable climate and fewer goblinoids
--Northeastern Darokin: more hospitable climate and easy access to Alfheim

I like aspects of both of your alternatives.

1. I like that this explanation is rooted in the published version of the Ee'aar. However, I'm not convinced that the Faedorne should necessarily come into play--I see them as rather distinct from the seelie court. If the Ee'aar owe unswerving allegiance to someone, I much prefer the idea that it is the fairies, the exiled immortals of entropy. Some day, when the world is changed, the fairies will call in this oath, and the Ee'aar will become, at least metaphorically, angels of death--this is exactly the sort of juxtaposition that makes Mystara fun!

2. This position also certainly has aspects to recommend it. It means that the elven legends of their own origin are not merely lost in legend, but rather deliberately obscured (it hasn't been all that many generations, after all).

How's this for a solution?

Thousands of years ago, the Immorals' Arm lived up to its name: thousands of immortals in exile lived in this remote land, a massive civilization of fairies. They had very little contact with the outside world until Ilsundal happened to lead a migration right through their living room. Great cultural exchanges ensued, with Ilsundal's elves and the fair folk dwelling together for decades--to this day, the peoples descended from Ilsundal's bands share cultural similarities to the seelie court unseen in other elven clans. One of the fairie princesses, with an entourage of hundreds, even accompanied Ilsundal, settling with the elves in the Sylvan Realm. Similarly, many elves felt that they had had enough of wandering and decided to stay among the fair folk. Among those who remained behind were some of the most clever, the most cunning, and the least hardy of the migrants--the delicate, thin, almost fragile appearance of the Ee'aar may be attributed to this fact.

Centuries later, Aeryl, spawn of Brom--some sort of experiments combining captured fairies with elves, led a slaves rebellion. She and her followers fled, finding refuge among the fair folk and elves living still in harmony on the Immortals' Arm. The fairies delighted in these winged elves, and Ilsundal's folk felt, in some ways, second best. Still, they lived in harmony.

Not too long after, the peninsula was again visited. The seers of the Serpent Peninsula had been troubled by visions of the overthrow of the Divinarchy, the slaughter and expulsion of the elves. Powerless against the overwhelming certainty of the future, and seeing the opportunity to increase their own power, many of the elven prophets disguised themselves and their close kin as human, masquerading as Tanogoro while their brethren were murdered and forced to flee. Rather than filling this power vacuum, however, the seers were one-upped by Mulogo, and upstart prophet calling himself the herald of Yav. While they may have resented Mulogo's siezure of power, the undercover elves foresaw in him the path to powers which they had never before imagined: the power of flight. For this reason, in their thirst for power, they became the most dedicated allies of Yav, encouraging the migration to the Immortals' Arm.

The elves and fairies of the Immortals' Arm drew back from the shore and watched the approaching tide of rafts from the east. Shortly after landing, however, Mulogo called together those who were elves in disguise and made his last prophecy to them, basically telling them to leave the Tanogoro forever, seeking their own blood in the West, for only their own blood can truly give them what they seek. The elves recognized the authority in Mulogo and left--once out of sight of the Tanogoro, they revealed themselves as elves and were greeted by the fair folk and elves, both with and without wings. They were taken before the queen of the seelie court, where the greatest of the elven seers drew a dagger, slashing his forearms in a manner learned from the Tanogoro, and swearing a blood oath that he and his descendents would owe allegiance to Her. As he finished speaking, the horrified onlookers saw something move beneath his tunic--then it ripped, and massive wings grew upon his back, black to match his hair.

Soon all the wingless elves in the area had sworn blood oathes to the fairy queen, and they grew wings of their own after the model of Aeryl's descendents. The oaths of undying allegiance are not normally called upon--the seelie court has no need of the elves' services, yet...

In intervening years, there have been increased contacts with other elven groups. From the Sylvan Realm came elves to swell the Ee'aar's ranks, along with the teachings of Ilsundal and Mealiden. In various stray boats and airships, Shiye-Llawr elves have come, entranced by the life among the fair folk and bringing with them word of Eiryndul. Elven survivors have also reached the Ee'aar from Vilaverdan and even Thadder shipwrecks. Many of these survivors seem to report odd lights in the high seas around the Immortals' arm: the flash of a beacon that inexplicably diverted a ship from a safe path, or the merry lights of a port town on what turned out to be a deserted stretch of coastline with rocks lurking offshore. One way or another, it seems clear that the immortals want the elves there, and, invariably, they end up making a blood oath and joining as full-fledged members of the Ee'aar flock.

Thoughts?

I think Kavar is too much like Kevar--the name of the other range of hills in Wendar. Incidentally, it's also rather like Kavala, the name of yet another range of hills being discussed in a map-spawned thread right now

How about Hardhead? The hin wanted to name it Dawnblossom, but the dwarves adamantly refused. Said it was ridiculous. They bickered long enough that the rest of the kingdom decided they liked one young halfling's suggestion for a name

It's ok if I'm the only one wanting flying elves in Wendar. I'll just put them there myself. And once again I never said have them everywhere, and if the Mengul Mts aren't an ideal place then pick another mountain, I don't care, I just have an Avariel character in my campaign that wants to come from Wendar. It's in my campaign regardless and whatever you guys decide since you are more upset with the idea than me than so be it.

I think you got the wrong impression from some of the posts. Nobody is looking to put winged elves all over the place. However, 2000+ years is plenty of time to support a migration/expansion or three.

I'm only being the 'devil's advocate' here, but the land elves have had tremendous migrations; much greater than twice the movement with twice the time. Among the themes of their migrations is the search for other elves. Wendar is as plausable a place for the winged elves to go as any, IMHO of course. I'd have them as relatively new arrives as well, perhaps 200 - 300 years ago, or even less.

I kind of feel like a druid tring to maintian balance!

Yes, I think Hugin is right. The discussion about ee'aar generated by tjedge1's suggestion was interesting, but it all started with an innocent desire to add a tribe or two of ee'aar to the area in his own campaign. Things have been blown rather out of proportion.

I know the feeling.

In any case, sorry to put my foot down, but I'd really appreciate if we could move any further discussion of the ee'aar to a new thread. I'm following the discussion with interest, but it has grown way past the topic of this thread.

Hmm, you have a point there. They do sound a bit similar.

Actually this is a rather nice idea. I can't imagine the dwarves being anything but pleased at the name "Hardhead", and the hin might go with it too after what they have all been through.

Even if that's not the name we eventually use, it would seem a reasonable compromise to make a hin-sounding name with a dwarf-like meaning. So something like Hardhead, Tightbelt, Blackhammer, Goldforge, etc. Can anyone think of one with a meaning fitting to the community?

While on the subject of "Dawnblossom-Qvar", I've been thinking a bit about its role in the community of Wendar. It seems to me that despite the town's reputation for disease and mutation, the dwarves at least could provide some much needed services for the rest of the nation. Quality dwarven tools and metalworking might well be much in demand among the elves and humans of Wendar, and this town could be a very useful resource for them.

I'm not sure what the halflings could do, though. Perhaps they spend their time beautifying their little town, and the problems of the village are all hidden behind this veneer of idyllic gardens and pretty little cottages...?

Edit: This kind of constructive criticism of place names is extremely welcome! Please, don't hold back guys!

Since no one else seems to want to wade into this, I guess I'll have a go at starting this conversation...

The new suggestions are at the end of each line. I'm going to keep track of each suggested name, so that we can see the stages of adapting them.

Aelythnar (fortress) > Aelthynar
Ammalanleth (elven village) > Amalleth
Dawnblossom-Qvar (dwarf & halfling village) > Dawnblossom Kavar > Hardhead
Duncan’s Keep (mixed village) > Duncanskeep
Laurianta (elven village) > Laurieth
Uumarne (mixed village) > Umarne
Tower of Anorion (ruined tower) > Tower of Andorien

In general, I think we should avoid overly long names, and difficult to pronounce names. Mystara tends to have relatively short names, and most of them are easily pronouncable.

Also, I want to avoid names recognisably taken from Tolkien.

On the subject of the Tenth Shrine... What if it also has to be maintained in order to keep the protection net intact? One of the biggest secrets in Wendar could be that the Tenth Shrine also has a keeper and subordinates looking after it.

Of course, located in the midst of the Dark Woods, with Idris' influence all around, this would not be a post to be assigned lightly. The keeper must be a very powerful, strong-minded elf, in order to stay safe from Idris' influence and not go insane.

Following along these lines, there could be many dark secrets related to the Tenth Shrine, and it could be a point of conflict between Idris' followers and the elves. What happens if the followers of Idris gain control? What effect does it have on the protection net? What powers does the shrine have, and can they be used for good, or only for evil?

I'm thinking about the Introduction for the Wendar Gazetteer, and it occurs to me that actually it is a very important article. Whatever we put there defines the main themes for the whole of Wendar, which the rest of the Gazetteer then expands upon.

Effectively, then, the Introduction is the basis for the whole Gazetteer. It might be useful for us to come up with some basic themes for Wendar, and refine them.

For example, just thinking about how to start the Introduction, it occurred to me that we still haven't settled on a theme for interactions between elves and humans. Given the nature of Wendar, I would probably put that information within the very first few lines of any Introduction.

So, I propose that before we get into the nitty gritty details, let's have a good discussion of principles and themes that we want in Wendar. This is also a good way to keep things in line with the official info, because it should be possible to derive some themes from that stuff too.

Tell me your themes!

I changed Geoff's original description to refer to an "ancient elven relic" rather than a "Tree of Life".

What if this relic is one of the original Genalleth relics, from the period before the Korrigans became Immortal and created the Nine Shrines and the Elvenstar?

I don't know exactly what this relic could be, but it could be very fun to create an ancient relic, probably related to Ordana. This would then make Brethiliath the centre of worship for Ordana in Wendar.

A very sound idea for Brethiliath, Thorf! Maybe they have preserved one of the leaves of the One Tree of Ordana, and it may retain some magical powers (minor ones), but essentially it should be a way of communing with Mother Forest.

On the topic of the relationship between elves and humans, I have always thought that they were on good terms, even if the rotten apples are everywhere, so even in Wendar.

In particular since the elves tend to be a bit aloof (it's not something they do to offend others: they ARE like that because of their heritage) and have stressed so much the importance of the Korrigans and the Shrines and the Elvenstar over Wendar's history, many humans have grown with time feelings of resentment and envy. These humans are backed up by agents of Idris, obviously, who convinced them to create the Humans Rights Movement, to further the cause of humans over elves dominance (they feel the elves have the key positions inside Wendar no matter what).

I would say the humans are integrated in the elves' world (I'd consider Wendar an elven kingdom), but a minority resents the elves' influence and acts to create their own independent kingdom or city-state (I don't remember where I put them, but I believe they should be in the largest settlement far from major elven reserves... Oakwall?)

After reading your histories of Idris, the Korrigans and Ordana, that was precisely what I had in mind. I would make it as powerful as any other clan relic, though, so that the clan in Brethiliath can use it as their clan relic. Also, this whole idea makes for another nice little secret for Wendar - and one that could lead to a very big secret, in discovering the fate of the original One Tree of Ordana.

Thanks, that helps me quite a bit on the human-elf relations theme. Basically we have an elven realm that has assimilated humans into its culture, to a large extent.

Oakwall does sound like the best option. The southwest seems to be the biggest area as far as humans are concerned.

That reminds me, we also need to work on descriptions for Wendar City (also need a map!), Oakwall, Woodgate and Sylvair, and eventually for the Nine Shrines too.