I figured that it was the Mystara equivalent of the Rock of Gibraltar.

Regards,
Eric Anondson

That's a good idea! Have the large scale map be a political map instead of a geographic map.

I've had a long-time dream of drawing an altitude map. As a matter of fact I've started one on several occasions but never (for some reason or other) been able to finish it.

My computer mapping skills are rather, well, non-existant! But I have hand-drawn two maps so far for my players in the style of the ones that appear in The Lord of the Rings movies; one is of the Known World and one is of the Northern Reaches. They are used as the maps that the characters actually have in-game.

Yep, thats what I've been using it as, but I've also found it useful for relative geographic positioning of the various land masses.


I tried this once, but found too many inconsistencies to be able to make it work (notably the Streel River system).

I remember having trouble with the Streel as well. IIRC, the problem pops its head up around the Broken Lands.

Yep! In the AC 1011 Almanac, both Corunglain and Ethengar have altitudes of 1800 feet. Even assuming that there is some varience in those general numbers, that's not much of a slope for the river to follow. Besides that, gaz 10 shows several greater cataracts along the Streel in the Broken Lands.

O man the Streel river system is a geographical nightmare and could only exist in a world that was "shaped by the Immortals". I too started to do topographical maps but gave that up almost immediately after I took a look at the Streel.

Here's today's map. We're staying on the Savage Coast for the next few days, it seems.



By the way, in case you're wondering if I'm ever going to be completing these maps, the answer is yes. Reproducing the Dragon maps is merely the first step, and provides the basis for what will eventually be the fully updated and expanded maps.

Of course that's always the case with my project, but in the case of the Savage Coast, there's an additional problem in that one of the primary sources is the large non-hex poster maps from the Red Steel sets. This has caused me problems up until now, but someone was able to provide me with some additional scans, which have allowed me to reassemble the scans from the Red Steel PDF with much more precision. (You know who you are, and thanks again! )

I need to ask a favour. Is there anyone here who has access to the original Dragon magazines with the Princess Ark maps? On the scans that I have, from the Dragon Archive CDs and from Thibault's site, it's very hard to make out if there should be any reefs along the coast. Specifically, I'm talking about the region from Robrenn (issue 177) all the way along to the Arm of the Immortals (issue 200).

I suspect that there are a few areas of reefs, but I'd really like to get it confirmed, and unfortunately my copies of the magazines are about 6000 miles away right now.

If someone is able to confirm this for me, the best thing to do would be to grab the scans from Thibault's site and mark the hexes with reefs. Just scribbling on the map in Paint would do it. Then e-mail the scan to me at thorf13@hotmail.com.

As we say here in Japan, yoroshiku ne!

I have the issue, but boxed so deep I couldn't get to it without rearranging my entire office. I've been going off of the Princess Arc scans as well.

BTW, looking at the Princess Arc maps of the Savage Coast, the deciduous forested hills have a the same background green as the heavy deciduous forest, rather than the same background green as light deciduous forest and farmland. You may have addressed this earlier, but was it a design choice to go with the forest deciduous hills to use the same background green as farmland?


Regards,
Eric Anondson

I hope someone more competent does the reefs, but in case they don't I will try to dig them out tonight

As for altitude maps and silly rivers, one can cheat! (And so can the rivers). If you need a river to flow across a mountain range from the low ground to the low ground it can! I think it is the Ganges which flows straight through the Himalayas - the river is older than the mountains and carved its gorge as the mountains rose...

Of course this won't work for the broken lands, as iirc they were the product of a Blackmoor device going BANG, but there are two tricks we could use:
1) The broken lands have messed up gravity as well as the magic and physical world got REALLY scrambled.
2) Have western Darokin at a much lower altitude c.f. Alfheim and Ethengar - making them both high plateaus (which fits the description of Alfheim before the elves arrived quite well). There would be a gradual but definite slope down from Alfheim to the Streel river valley.
I prefer idea 2 (though I think 1 has potential) and it does not mess up any other geography as the rest of eastern Darokin is surounded by hills and mountains, as is Ethengar (make that the Ethengar plateau) - the hills seperating it from Vestland and Heldann not being so much a barrier but the edge of the plateau...

Of course the actual river connections as drawn are a problem, but I am sure we can tackle them eventually. One point though, in England all our rivers are much smaller, but two significant ones (for us) are the Severn and the Wye, both reach the sea at the same place (ish) and their sources are (iirc) a mile and a half apart, they just take very different routes. I wonder how they would look on an 8-mile hex map scale? Also just to show that nature can lay silly games too, their sources are about 10 miles east of the sea, but the Wye flows south-east and the Severn north-east (the Severn is the longest river in England)...

__________________
"If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it might just be a crow."

There are some, but unfortunately the coloring makes it really hard to see. I'll try to do the scan/paint thing you suggest and send them along to you tonight.

[EDIT] Actually, I just compared the originals with Adamantyr/Ironwolf's maps on Thibault's site, and he's got them marked exactly as they are on the Dragon maps, so you could just use those as your template and they'd match up.

Oh, I had forgotten Adamantyr's maps. Thanks for reminding me, I'll use them to add in the missing reefs.

Just to chip in to the ongoing contour map discussion - personally I don't think the problems are insurmountable. Altitude information for each country and each area is not especially common, and even where it is provided it's usually just average figures. This leaves us cartographers with a lot of latitude to make things work, regardless of how they are portrayed on the map.

Eventually, if no one beats me to it, I'll probably have a go at a countour map. It would be quite fun to do, I think, and of course it would be relatively easy to use the coastlines, rivers and such from the hex map files, so the "only" thing that would need to be done would be the actual contours...

Yes, I used the original magazines as my templates. Quite welcome!

Adamantyr

Don't get me wrong, I don't think a contour map is impossible, just alot more work than I was prepared to do. There are a few places that get wierd.

Start in Rockhome. The Evemur river starts within sight of steppelands and instead flows through the mountains to a lake. This means that NW Ylaruam and southern Rockhome is the highest altitude. Until the Nithian River was diverted the other way and the Ylari Highlands in the north were raised, the Styrdal would not have cut through the north into Ethengar. The only feed for that river system would then be the Hrap which flows from Lake Klintest. Now, Ive seen alot of Mystara maps which show The Klintest river running through Vestland, and the same goes for the Vestfjord which is shown to start in the same lake. If this is the case then no way could the Hrap exist.

If the rivers are to spill over and cut their way through the mountains to the east to flow across a coastal highland and cut fjords into it to the sea then the coastal highlands would have to be considerably lower than the lake. The steppes in which the Hrap flows would have to be higher in elev. than the highlands, because of the long gradual decline of the river system, so east Ethengar would have to continue rising to the coast. Now we have 2 short fast rivers running downhill quickly in the east and this would prevent any other river from cutting a slower path into the north.

It's amazing with three rivers flowing from it that there is a lake left at all. The mere fact that there is not one but two in the region suggests a tremendous amount of rainfall. How does that occur in a high altitude mountain range smack between steppes and a desert?

Next we are into Ethengar. As it turns out there is yet another tributary supplying this system from eastern Ethengar, suggesting again that it raises up in the east. The hills then would be hills and not the "edge of the plateau". (the cliffs along this coast must be magnificent) The Krandai joins the Hrap and the Styrdal at a small lake in a depression in the steppes. I don't know about anyone else but to me it is very hard to reconcile the flow of these rivers through and around these depressions. The two rivers that give me the least trouble are the central river (which appears to be the headwaters of the Streel), although it runs within sight of a depression, and the Dol-Anur. These rivers travel through a region that doesnt see a huge amount of rainfall so can't be especially big or strong rivers. And remember until Nithia is destroyed the Styrdal probably didn't exist. I would make this same arguement for the Hrap as well. So we have an unexceptional amount of water flowing into the west.

It all seems to flow into a swamp, although if I were to guess I'd say that originally it might have been a small lake before it made it's push through the mountains. As to where this lake drained I don't know. I believe it would have taken alot of water and force to push through the mountains, so either this lake was huge (kinda contradictory to the amount of water available) or everything happened when Nithia fell and the Rockhome Lakes added their water to the system (I know this concept is not supported anywhere in the material but it is the logical conclusion of my research) So when it finally cut its way through the mountains the lake drained off and became a swamp. This doesn't make much sense either but that's what happened.

This suggests that the broken lands are not so much mountains but the "edge of the plateau". A wierd little zit between three mountain ranges broken asunder by magical blasts and the relentlessness of the rivers.

Then we come to Darokin. Everything here is pretty simple. I would like to suggest, however, that the river which has always flowed through here is the Vesubia River. It would have been the more direct flow from the Glantrian highlands and mountains. It wouldn't have been untill after the Fall of Nithia and the swamp/lake draining that the Streel in Ethengar joined the Vesubia.

As I said this was all too much headache for me. Not that the history had much bearance on a current map but I wanted to get an idea of how it all happened. There is still a lot of headache trying to get the elevations right for every area. If you can do it I say more power to you! I'll be patiently waiting (and drooling) for it.

I've had issues with reconciling irregularities with the maps as well. I've worked through most of them though.


Emirates of Ylaruam (Gaz 2) only tells us that there was "an uplift of the northern Alasiiyan plateau and a subsidence of the centrao Alasiyan desert. The headwaters of the great River Nithia were diverted through what is now the Makistani Plateau, finally disappearing into the great subterranean reservoirs of the Alasiyan drainage."

What this tells us is that the Emirate of Makistan is of lower elevation than northwest Alasiya today. And it is Makistan that borders Rockhome, near the headwaters of the Evemur. I would argue that the old River Nithia had its headwaters in the Makres Mountains, southwest of the Makres River.

Since the Makistan Plateau never changed in elevation there never would have been a geologic change to redirect the outflow of Lake Stahl.


Rivers do not cut fjords. Glaciers do. It is very likely that with the geologically recent glaciation that buried the area after Blackmoor that the river valleys in which the Vestfjord, Klintest, and Hrap river were all carved by glaciers.

River erosion occurs at different speeds depending on the angle. Volume doesn't have as much to do with it as angle of flow. The steeper the flow, the faster the river, the faster the erosion


We could assume that the Vestfjord and Klintest are short and fast, but all we know is that they share the same elevation of headwaters as the Hrap. We don't know what elevation it is. For all we know, the Hrap is also a short fast river until it hits the Ethengar steppes. We do know that the Vestfjord and Klintest/(Landersfjord?) rivers are "swiftflowing, rocky and treacherous" (Gaz 7) past Rhoona on the Vestfjord River and Landersfjord on the Klintest River.

Dwarves of Rockhome says that the Kur River is a "mountain stream" as it flows from Lake Klintest and "flows northeast in a series of rapids." But we don't know when those rapids begin. For all we know the rapids begin 16 miles from the shore of Lake Klintest, and the Kur River flows as a peacefully calm stream until the rapids.

Gaz does say about the Klintest River that "(t)his river forms in Lake Klintest and flows east into a gorge in the Makres Mountains." It's almost 50 miles to the Makres Mountains and the Klintest River could be a gentle river until he falls into the gorge in the mountain... but who know where that gorge is in the Makres?


It is amazing that two small rivers and one stream flow from the lake. It is exceedingly rare. But that there are lakes this size tells us nothing about the rainfall. Lake Baikal in Siberia is crammed into the mountains, but there is little rainfall there. The Great Lakes of North America don't get that much rainfall, compared to the Ohio River valley just to the south.


Yeah, I have the same problems... Well, rather I have problems reconciling the closed depression of the Sea of Flowers. The best I can come with is that the soil there is extremely permiable and a matrix of caverns exist beneath the surface and what little rain there is that falls onto the area doesn't so much as flow across the steppe, but soaks into the ground and seeps into the caves beneath the surface. Possibly beneath the Sea of Flowers is the worlds largest limestone cave network that has begun to collapse like a sinkhole in slow motion. (shrug)


I disagree (see above).


Not necessarily. For example, looking at the Mississippi river basin. Looking at the juncture of the Ohio River basin with the rest of the Upper Mississippi River Basin and the Missouri River Basin you might think that most of the water there comes from the Mississippi flow. But it doesn't. At that junction, the Ohio River contributes 2/3rds more water to the flow than the Mississippi River brings. The Ohio River Basin is tiny in comparison to the Mississippi/Missouri River basin. It's all in the rainfall, and we can't judge how much rain there is by the size of the lakes.

And the Streel flowing through the Broken Lands. I'd put greater faith that it is flowing through a glacially carved valley. There is no reason a river would have carved through mountains when it would have just redirected towards the lower elevation of the Black Hills. To me, this means that there was already a carved valley through the mountains there. And glaciation is the best cause.

Just some thoughts from a geographer for you.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

The map I have (the original) shows Evemur as begiining in the steppes, not 8 miles away. The river Nithia is clearly marked, there should be no guessing.
Makistan is not marked as a plateau regardless of the description. It does not show elev lines (although the "plateaus" of Mystara more resemble mesas) If the river Nithia flows south into a mountain pool it makes it harder to reconcile with the tributary and Lake Stahl. Makistan on my map IS NW Alasiya, it doesnt get anymore north or west from here. A subsidence is a lowering, so Makistan is higher than the central deserts. I'd agree that Makistan would apparently have been cut out by a river but the only river in the area is the Evemur. I already understood erosion and the speed of rivers. Water follows the path of least resistance. That was my point. Volume has everything to do with the size of the system itself, the ability to flow "up" out of a depression, and cutting through the mountains. I would suggest here that what forms the badlands and brokenlands in the Broken Lands is the 2 rivers flooding out and carving the rock into a maze of gorges and ravines etc. hence my assumption of alot of water needed.

I have lived in Ohio most of my life and I can tell you, you are not entirely correct about the Great Lakes. They are created from rivers from Canada which recieves alot more precipitation than the Ohio valley. In fact almost all of our weather comes from the NW in Canada. It releases alot of precipitation in Canada feeding the lakes and rivers there. Travels across the Great Lakes, picking up more moisture, to drop it on the land in an increasing amount the closer to the mountains it gets.Its called the lake effect. Thats why the lakes themselves don't seem to get alot of rainfall, but a lake doesn't feed itself. The reason the Ohio valley gets as much rain as it does is because the weather "breaks" on the Appalachians. There is a tremendous amount of water involved in the Ohio and Mississippi drainage systems and only this much water can make rivers this big. A comparison between the Streel and the Mississippi wouldnt be farfetched, but now you have to combine all the rainfall throughout the entire Ohio, Missouri, and Mississippi systems into Rockhome with a little for Ethengar. Not forgetting Glantri, but the Streel is still rather large in Ethengar.

It is apparent that Ethengar does not recieve alot of precipitation yet has a few fairly large rivers. Typically the weather would "break" against the sides of the mountains not in them. Meaning the areas around Rockhome should see more rainfall. This is not the case. Having said that and using your arguement that the lakes in Rockhome do not denote alot of rainfall I wonder how with an unexceptional amount of water we are getting a Mississippi river, and a flood big enough to carve out the brokenlands. The weather systems on Mystara are highly more questionable than the geography, but this doesn't make the geography any easier.

I still dont see how to reconcile a lake that flows in two different directions. Especially the one that has two short outlets to the sea and one long one in a totally different direction. This is also why I refuse to believe that the Styrdal and the Nithia existed at the same time. IMC I turn the Nithia around to have it flow into the Stahl (which is actually how it is pictured in the map) I consider this as diverting the headwaters from flowing into Ylaruam.

While the geography is reconcilable for the most part it still remains to be seen how to do a contour. I think if you started in on one youd see that its not as easy as it sounds to reconcile this stuff.

PS>don't pay too much attention to what the Rockhome GAZ says, one column before the one you quoted from has all the rivers flowing into the lakes, including the Hrap, Kur, Styrdal, and Klintest. And thats not the only obvious error.

Don't wrack your brains too much, guys. Remember that this is a fantasy world. It doesn't have to make sense. Anything that contradicts meteorology or geology can easily be explained by magic, if nothing else.

For example: the magically controlled weather in Alfheim is an easy explanation as any for almost any meteorological inconsistencies in the entire Known World region.

So you've got a lake that shouldn't be there? Fine. A gate to the Elemental Plane of Water solves that.

Don't get so hung up on how things work in the real world - after all, isn't the real world what we're trying to leave behind when we play?

Next we'll be discussing how improbable it is for dragons to fly …

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Obligatory non sequitur goes here.

What original is this? The foldout map from Emirates of Ylaruam and the Trail Map show Evenmur in a hex 8 miles away. Which map shows the River Nithia clearly marked?


And neither is any part of Alasiya, but it is described as a plateau as well.


The fold out map of the Emirate of Ylaruam distinguishes the Emirate of Alasiya from the Emirate of Makistan. There is an internal border line running roughly northeast to southwest in direction.

I'm going to duck out of the climate talk, as much as there are misconceptions I'd like to correct. It's way off the thread topic.

At my mother in law's house again tonight, so no progress on mapping today or tomorrow.

Anyway, here's today's map. When I get home tomorrow I'll be uploading a slightly updated version of this one and the past three, with the reefs marked in and a few minor problems fixed. Tomorrow's map will likely be the joined together version of the last four.

I've actually been having some problems with linking up the Gulf of Hule map with the Bellayne to Robrenn map. Specifically, the Red Steel maps for these areas don't seem to agree with the Princess Ark maps if overlapped as pictured on the maps. But more of that later.

Since we were talking about the lakes in Rockhome try that map. You'll find the Evemur where I said it is. You'll also find the Nithia River clearly marked.

You cannot use Alfheim as the catalyst for all the known world's meteorological wierdness since the magic the elves use is resitricted solely to the Canolbarth.

I believe they were using the term Alasiyah as the name of the entire region before it became Ylaruam. It is also the name of the desert itself. They were not specifically referring to a single emirate, as that emirate didn't exist. So, yes, there are several places in Alasiyah described as a plateau, which can be seen by elev lines, in the north, south, and west. I again reiterate that in this world with these maps if it doesn't have elev lines it is not a plateau regardless of how it is described. Even by your own descrption it cannot possibly be a plateau if it is lower than the surrounding region.

I am not really worried about the RW science of it all as there are immortals to make things wierd. I do, however, believe the immortals would try to rely upon the physical laws of nature as much as possible. Tweaking them here and there to suit there needs.

Originally I was posting about contour maps. It's all good and well to sit there and say "It's easily reconcilable". I have actually tried this years ago and it's not that easy.

Actually, that's not quite true. The magic that sustains the Canolbarth diverts rain from the Alasiyan basin. So the magic affects both Alfheim and Ylaruam, in the official source material. Is it really so difficult to imagine that magic powerful enough to alter the weather patterns of those two places so drastically - on a nightly basis - might have had minor, unintentional side effects in neighboring countries?

I'm not really picking on any one person in particlar here. The situation just amuses me. We can readily accept that pointy-eared humanoids can magically manipulate the very climate of their kingdom without question. But we have to pull out the science books to explain a lake in the mountains (or a river's headwaters, or whatever)?

Great job on the maps Thorf - geographically accurate or not.

Today's map will be posted when I get back tonight (in about six or seven hours, probably).

I've been thinking about my current situation, and how busy I'm getting with wedding preparations and such. When my work starts up again things are going to get even busier, and it looks like my dad will be coming out to visit for about a month, from mid April to mid May. On top of that I have to look into moving apartments, and various other things.

All these things are leaning heavily on my map making capabilities, but I don't want to lose my momentum entirely. So, for now I've decided to stop posting maps at weekends. It seems to me that there are less posts to these boards and the list at the weekend, and the two day break from posting could allow me to get ahead in my mapmaking, so that I have a few maps in reserve for days when I'm busy.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I think in the end five days a week is more realistic, and much more doable.

Thorf, I see you're up to the map from Dragon 180, but there doesn't seem to be a map from issues 170 or 173.

Was that because the adventures in those issues took place in an existing area?

Or did they skip a couple of issues for some reason?

BTW - I think it's a good idea about taking a break from posting maps over the weekends. The last thing you want is to have a conflict with the wedding plans, or things could turn a bit nasty!

On the subject of river flow, I've just been reading GAZ3, and it mentions the fact that the canals of Glantri City run into the rivers, rather than the other way around.

It attributes this to a member of the Guild of Architects opening up several small portals to the Plane of Water in various locations in the canal system.

If a human architect can manage that, then a portal set deep within a mountaintop lake seems like a suitable solution to at least some of the river system problems (not that I managed to follow all of the technical discussion! )

Then you'd just have to decide whether these were "naturally" occuring, or if they had been placed deliberately by an Immortal or powerful mage, and then work out why.

Today's map is the joined up version of the last four, which together depict the central area of the Savage Coast.
It's this map that I am working on enhancing with the information from the Red Steel maps, but the finished version
will not be ready for a while yet.

I don't have a problem with magic being the answer. If you will recall I was the one who said the Streel "could only have been made by the immortals" as real science doesn't fit. However, it seems to be a bad habit of everyone, including the devs, that when something doesn't fit throw magic at it. The idea of setting up natural patterns for things is so they can run smoothly without constant supervision. If the lakes had their source in the elemental plane of water there would be more reports of monsters in those lakes, as there are in the Glantri canals. A gate is a two-way street.

I realize that it says in the GAZs that elven magic diverts weather from Ylaruam. I ask you though, what weather? It was a desert long before the elves came. It would be more logical to pull weather from the coast or from central and west Darokin. If we look at the maps, and take into account the Canolbarth was originally steppes, it is apparent that the entire region is a bit deficient in the rainfall dept. From Hule to Rockhome is mostly deserts and steppes, with the exception of Atruaghin territories, coastal lands, Lake Akesoli region, and Glantri. Then with Ethengar and Ylaruam the majority of the known world is a rather dry place. Not devoid of rain just not that abundant. BTW when I said the magic was restricted to the Canolbarth I was talking about the effect (ie. rain) not the source.

I have a pretty good idea how the lakes were made. That isn't my problem. It's how they are still here with each one having outlets that flows in two different directions and very little rain to replenish them (or there is alot of rain that drops here and nowhere else. take your pick of problems)The Streel system and the Krandai system are large rivers not small streams. It even states in the Rockhome GAZ that the lowlands are very fertile and see "a good amount of rainfall" and that the region is "well-irrigated" by streams and rivers. This is telling me that this region sees more rainfall than all the surrounding regions (maybe even combined). We haven't even begun to mention the caves and all the underground waterways yet.

You can throw magic at it if you want. It's the easy way out. Just remember, every time you throw magic at something it becomes susceptible to the day/week with no magic (whichever you use). IMC I prefer to have a natural law explain things when possible and am loathe to throw yet more magic at it. During the times of no magic all non-immortal magic simply doesnt work. I make no exceptions, not even for those things done while on a path to immortality (ie. Floating Ar, although some have argued before that once achieving immortlity he could've strengthened it with immortal magics). I make no exceptions for immortals in mortal form either(Etienne, even though he would still have access to immortal magic he can't use it on Mystara).

But these are my opinions on things. If you don't like them don't use them. It doesn't bother me one bit. I am just trying to work through inconsistencies without throwing yet another mage at it. There is no reason why anyone would do anything for themselves if they could just rely on a mage to do it for them. With that mindset I would be surprised if Mystara wasn't full of fat, lazy people waiting for the next peddler-mage to come a'calling. It then becomes a larger headache for me to try and figure out how everything still works when there is no magic. Besides, who wants to be "Immortal Peon of Rain-Making in Rockhome" spending the majority of your immortal life (and power) on that one thing? If anyone wants to volunteer the position is open in my world.

According to GAZ5, the Elves arrived in Alfheim around 800BC, and started the weather magics which diverted rainfall from the Alaysian/Nithian basin. This process was (IIRC) then enhanced by the change in the lay of the land (and other Immortal magics) around that river basin. It is also probable that some rainfall was diverted from Ethengar making it less fertile than when the Ethangar arrived there.

As for the probable lack of rain over Rockhome, when Kagyar created this nation, couldn't he have put in a couple of one way gates to the Plane of Water under these lakes? Thus enabling the Dwarfs to create at least a partial arable economy (even if it is a touch difficult for them to come to terms with it)? There is a mention of water spirits in GAZ12, some of which could be elementals etc swept down from these lakes into Ethengar.

Sorry for hi-jacking your thread here with our discussion, Thorf!

A new thread has been created to continue with this interesting topic; "Contours and the Streel Water Basin".

Issue #169 is the Sind map, #170 was Yavdlom, which Thorf hasn't done yet. #171 has the Slagovich map, #172 is the Southern Hule/Savage Baronies part 1 map, #173 was about Hule, but had no map. #174 and #175 were Savage Baronies parts 2 and 3, #176 is the Cimmaron County issue. #177 is Robrenn, #178 is Eusdria, #179 was Renardy, #180 was about Limbo, but had a map for Bellayne. #181 is where Bellayne is finally described, but has no map. #182 also has no map or article (it's a Q&A), #183 is Herath, with partial map, #184 is another Q&A. #185 is the lizardfolk kingdoms, #186 was Wallara, #187 gives yet more Q&A, #188 is the phanaton kingdom.

We don't get another map after that until #192, where the scorpion man kingdom is described (this map also has part of the missing Herath map). The last maps are in #196 (Orc's Head) and #200 (Arm of the Immortals). Both of these maps are in 24 miles per hex, though, so are not as detailed as the other Savage Coast maps.

Part of a missing Herath map? What page is this? You're not talking about the map of Nimmur are you? Because that map doesn't even show all of Nimmur, much less any part of Herath. I just checked the whole issue from the Dragon Archive...

Just curious so I can track it down.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

Western Herath is actually depicted with 24mph in Dragon #196, along with the Orcs Head Penninsula.

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Mystara in 3D VRML <-- Updated with screenshots. Thanks Shawn!