Well, this one is one that I did long ago, based on scaling the B10: Night's Dark Terror map of the Lost Valley/Karameikos region. The scale on it is 8 mi/hex, but the original map scale (from B10) was different- 6 mi/hex or smaller, IIRC (not sure offhand).

The whole Verge/Threshold region is still not quite right, though. Verge should be located slightly higher up than Threshold, according to the B10 and older maps. The river actually extends right up to the edge of the Lost Valley.

Hehe. By the way, I posted the revised version of the Karameikos map with Kelvin moved down a hex and the text names for the rivers in place. It replaces the Karameikos map in the first page of this thread.

It seems to me that there is definitely value in remaking the original maps as is, complete with all errors and discrepancies, as well as hybrid, up to date versions with all of those things fixed. Unfortunately, for the Gazetteer maps I went straight to the hybrid forms. The result is that they didn't actually take into account all of the info at hand. At some point I will go back and recreate all the different versions of the maps (which is easier than making them from scratch now that I have them made in hybrid form).


Yes, I've seen your map with the Lost Valley drawn in - it looked rather cool. That's what prompted me to check out B10 in the first place, but in the end I decided it was going to take too much time to sort out, and as such it was moved to the bottom of my rather long list of mapping tasks.



Yep, they basically put Threshold in Verge's place as far as I could see. It's especially unfortunate since it's the only source for Lake Windrush, though I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to duplicate just that part up where Threshold should be.

I did like the way they mapped the mountains. One problem with hex mountains is that they don't necessarily give you much detail on how many mountains there are, where the peaks are, and so on. B10's maps made all that info crystal clear.



I hadn't even gotten as far as noticing that bit... Oh dear, so it's like the Isle of Dread detail map? That will make things very difficult too. I think my initial reaction of placing it at the bottom of the list was a good one!



It will be interesting to superimpose the borders and rivers visible on the map, and see if it lines up that way. If it doesn't, I'll be tempted just to grab the details I can and run away screaming before it drives me insane.

Speaking of which, should Riverfork Keep be moved one hex south as well? So that it's actually at a fork in the river?

(I expect that it sits where it is because it would otherwise hide the nature of the fork in the river, but its location is somewhat misleading).

Adamantyr = Ironwolf, right? Nice to meet you.


That's essentially what I plan to do too. Unfortunately, putting together scans of the hexless Red Steel maps is no easy task. But I'm hoping to be able to line them up using the Princess Ark maps combined with line maps of the Savage Coast. Anyway, your maps will make handy reference for my task too.



Andrew was asking about your program not long ago. My method can certainly yield great results, but it does involve buying a rather expensive piece of software, unfortunately.



Thanks, that's nice to know. Your maps are still going to be useful reference for me, though.

Now, onto the subject of the moment: Atruaghin.


Yes, I know exactly what you mean. The ends of the plateau were pretty well designed on the GAZ14 map, even if the proportions of the plateau as a whole were not. The main difference between our plateaus is that you added a bit in between the two ends, while I averaged out the ends with the 24 mile per hex map, at the same time creating a curved version.


Hehe, I was tempted to add in another clan holding or two, actually... I'd love to put in a Puffin Tribe.

Still not sure what to do about the Vipers. I did very much like your idea of having ruins, and I might well add it in later, but for now I'm sticking to "official" stuff as much as possible.



I was wondering about this, because I don't have the Atruaghin Gazetteer here to refer to, unfortunately. It's not hard to move the plateau in towards the two that are away from the edge, so I think I'll go ahead and do that. Thanks for pointing that one out.


Andrew kept the GAZ14 location, moved to the west a little as a result of adding in the middle slice of the map. I ignored the GAZ14 islands altogether, and simply went with the Wrath of the Immortals islands, using the names from the smaller GAZ14 islands.

Confusingly, both approaches are "canonical", depending on which map you trust most.

By the way, my coastline is I think exactly the same as the Wrath of the Immortals coastline. I could actually have incorporated the shapes of the GAZ14 coastline a little more, I suppose.



The northern border roughly follows the 24 mile per hex border, but I did decide to keep the little "flourishes" of the GAZ14 border. Since they are small details, they are not inconsistent with the 24 mile per hex border, which tends to generalise things out anyway.

And you're right about the border on Whale Bone Island. Actually the 24 mile per hex map has it cutting through the island, but I have interpreted that as a generalisation, and I moved the border to encompass the island as far as I could while remaining faithful to the large scale map. In retrospect it would probably be best just to change the 24 mile per hex map and have the border encompass the island and its shallow water entirely.

As for reasons why the island would be only half within the border, I really can't see any good ones. If it were half in Sindhi territory it could make sense as a border dispute of some kind, but the Sindhi border is a few hexes away, meaning that Whale Bone Island is half in neutral territory. It all seems a bit silly.



Sounds like a good idea.



This is a feature of the original GAZ14 map, except that that map had the sea around the Tiger Clan going into Malpheggi Bay as a sort of no-man's-land. I always thought this was rather silly, since it would make sense for the Turtle Clan to control the water, since that is indeed their specialty. It could also explain how they are able to continually avoid the Tigers.

Talking of which, it seems more and more likely to me that the Turtle Clan should indeed be in control of the islands, including having a clan hold on each island. In times of trouble they could even retreat to the islands en masse, in order to escape the Tiger Clan's violent advances.


Yep, thus far I've been doing two types of map: replicas of the original maps (Dragon maps, module maps, etc.) and corrected/updated maps (Gazetteer series). Originally I started out with just the corrected maps, but as I worked through them I realised that remaking the original maps was an obvious and very useful step in making the corrected versions, because all existing sources must be used to get to an all-encompassing corrected version.

Of course, the number of original maps is rather limited, so it won't be too long before I run out of maps to recreate, and move entirely into making corrected maps. Then once that's done, I'll start on developing areas not fully covered in the official maps, eventually encompassing and using secondary sources (i.e. fan-made maps).

Going back to the subject of the Bear Clan, I agree that the icons should stay on top of the plateau, but adjacent to the edge.


Interesting. Personally, I would say that humanoid borders are largely irrelevant to human nations, and vice versa, and explain the border that way. Although you have to wonder about how the border is established in the first place, given the fractured nature of the Clans. The Turtle Clan is clearly occupying their lands on the border, but what about the Horse Clan? If no one is living in the area between the plateau and the Sind border, why haven't the Sindhi moved in?


I covered this in my previous reply to Chris.Nix.

I just bothered to check this thread out finally. Bravo!

I'm a mapper myself, having done monster maps of some Greyhawk regions in Photoshop, now located at the Greyhawk fansite "Canonfire!". The research was the hardest part. So with that I must say that the work gone into these maps is devotion of the highest order!

Thorf, this is awesome. I've been waiting for someone to do the leg work in making these swatches, symbols, etc. for Illustrator. I prefer doing my mapping in professional design programs, like Photoshop and Illustrator. I'd love to get the actual working files in native Illustrator format, but I imagine they might be excessively large.

I've been playing with the .ai files you put on your site and am building up the skills necessary to do maps like you're doing already... Any further tips for those of us learning to do what you are doing, beyond what you're site describes in 10 steps?

So, thanks again for your work!


Regards,
Eric Anondson

You're in luck Eric:
maps/mapping.html
I'm just sad that ai2svg doesn't work on either version, nor does karbon14, inkscape, sodipodi, or any other opensource vector graphics program. I'm still stuck in a bitmap world.

__________________
Mystara in 3D VRML <-- Updated with screenshots. Thanks Shawn!

I'm looking into how to distribute the original map files I'm making. The guy who made Baldur over at Mad Irishman Productions referred me to something called the "Creative Commons License" that looks like a pretty good idea. When that's out of the way, the only hurdle will be finding somewhere to post the files, which Shawn might be able to handle at the Vaults, if he gives it the okay.

Distributing the Illustrator files would really be the best option for everyone, because if you have Illustrator you can edit them as much as you need to, and even if you don't, you can see them in perfect quality in Acrobat.

Anyway... Culture20, I've been meaning to post a version of the files in SVG format for a while, but haven't gotten round to it yet because I don't know exactly what would be wanted. I'm also running into server space problems recently...

Do you just need a file with all the hexes laid out in it?

Not sure about the Heldannic Territories border. Any advice?

I worked the following out from extrapolating from the 72mile map in DotE. This isn't the final version, but I hope it helps.

Likewise.


Yes, I did much the same. I took the hexless maps from the Red Steel box set, then I used a transparent hex-grid mapper to roughly approximate the hex make-up. It's not as hard as it sounds, really, but it could get time-consuming with large areas.


That's good to know. I could probably put it up on a website for download, although it's not really operational yet. (Can't export images or print them.) The speed issue is really bugging me, I have to fix that... And writing my own version of Paint is an annoyance. That's why I built the import function, so you could just bring in rivers, roads, and so forth from something done in another program easily.

The biggest difference between my maps and yours is mine are pure bitmap, where yours use a vector system with highly-defined hex objects that are re-rendered at any given resolution. This works fine with Adobe, but yeah, it does put the making of such maps beyond the casual hobbyist.

Given my long history with vintage computers, I rather like doing the pixel artwork personally; I did all the hexes from the original maps myself in a 32x32 matrix. My mapping program uses the same hexes I made doing the maps by hand years ago. They're a little more jagged at the edges, but I liked the results.

I did send Thibalt my version of Ylaruam awhile back, but it doesn't appear to have gotten up on his site. (He also complained because I "altered" the original, adding sand dunes to the coastal areas of Ylaruam.) I haven't done much more with maps, as I felt making a program to produce them would be a better task to focus on.

Adamantyr "IronWolf"

That will be worth waiting for. BTW, maybe you could talk to the author of Baldur into making the special characters needed for the things likt "å" or
"ç"?


Very true. I'm not terribly familiar with most vector formats, but what is lost in the translation to .svg or .svgz? What about exporting to AutoCAD's .dxf or .dwg, surely those formats are pretty standardized for vector files. I know bunches of vector-based programs on every platform that can import those AutoCAD formats

Also, what steps do you go to get your borders and road styles. Line widths, dotted patterns, etc. Could you describe what settings you use for the strokes of each line? Or better yet, somehow export them into your "mappingcs" package so those of us taking your "mappingcs" package will all be using your same settings... the better for uniformity in appearance.

Lastly, when will Thorf's Secret Project: Stage Two begon?


Regards,
Eric Anondson

Thanks, Mark. And good to hear from you. I've been meaning to post some comments on your 24 mile per hex map, but I figured it would be best to wait until I've finished my own revised one. To cut a long story short, the Wrath of the Immortals map is no good, and in fact there is no official 24 mile per hex map that is consistent with the 8 mile per hex maps. You made some of the corrections on your map, but there are still quite a lot of inconsistencies to be worked out. Anyhow, I'm hoping to have my map done soon, and it will be easier to discuss this then.

About the Heldann border: I think you're right in using the 72 mile per hex map, because it seems to be one of only two sources other than X11 that gives a pre-Wrath border for Heldann. The other is the 48 miles per hex Wrath map. Unfortunately, looking into this issue opens up the Norwold/Kamminer Bay problem. More of this tomorrow, but it looks like the Heldann/Landfall border has at least two, possibly three or more incarnations. Worst of all, though perhaps unsurprising considering Wrath's low standards of cartography, the 24 mile map is actually not consistent with the 48 mile map in the same set! That has to be the absolute low point of Mystara's official cartography...


I agree putting on the hex grid is pretty easy. My problem is that I only have partial, non-overlapping scans to work with, so getting them straight in the first place is a major hurdle. If I had a better scan of them than the official ESD's typically badly done scan, things would be a lot easier.



If you have the time, I would be first in line to encourage you. Good mapping programs are still in demand, I believe. And my system only helps if you have or can afford Illustrator, as you say.

In the end, I think you're also right in that there's nothing wrong with bitmap images for maps. Let's face it, the only real advantage with vector graphics is for zooming and printing. Zooming isn't really necessary or advantageous for hex-maps, and printing can work fine with high res bitmaps anyway.



I'd be interested in seeing that. Despite my attempts to stick with official stuff for now, I've already done some little alterations myself. As my project proceeds, I'll probably be making more and more adjustments and alterations to the original maps, to get the best possible maps.


Already underway.



I'm afraid I'm not entirely familiar either. That said, it should be pretty easy for me to export the files into whatever format is asked for. It'll just take a little time to prepare the base file, after which things should be pretty fast.


In the latest CS version of the files (which isn't online yet), I've defined roads, trails, rivers and borders as Graphic Styles, which solves this exact problem. There are also brushes for contours, courtesy of Katana One, and I think I've updated the symbols a bit too probably.

The problem is, I haven't actually set in stone which sizes of river I use where yet, although the roads, trails and borders are always the same. I need to do this at some point.

There is also a specification for labels, with each type of label (settlement, capital, mountain name, mountain range, country, sea, fauna, etc.) having its own size and line spacing. This has to vary a bit between small and large scale maps, which has me a bit confused right now, but when I get it all sorted out I will post the details of that in with the template.


Ah, a good question. Most people had probably long ago stopped noticing or wondering that this is just stage one. I certainly had!

The answer is that I will reveal it as soon as stage one is sufficiently advanced, and the basic planning for stage two is in place. And, of course, when I am sure that I will be able to actually carry it through to completion! That will depend on how much help I can get, and how ambitious/complex I end up making things.

Luckily, this project is definitely one that can be built upon bit by bit, so for now just sit back and enjoy the maps.

Yeah, I know there are still more inconsistencies, but I needed to get this fairly basic version done so I can get on with the IoD/Alphatia region, (my mapping method starts from Specularum and the moves outwards). For this region (in AC1000) I'm using the DotE borders converted to whichever scale I'm using.

If you've any other queries, give me a shout.

Mark

I just tried opening them with the linux version of Adobe Reader, and it said the AI file needs to be saved with "PDF compatibility" turned on. Hopefully if adobe reader can read them, it can also print them to postscript...


Just having vector drawings of the many terrain hexes you've done would work wonders.
For my current side project I'm using Ironwolf/Adamantyr's graphics, and will probably convert over to your vector graphics eventually so that I can print them on an industrial map plotter (or kinkos if I can't convince my friend to print the maps for me).

Yup, that's an option that can be turned on when saving in Illutrator.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

Once again I'm in a hurry, so replies will be later.

This is the first Norwold map, from CM1 and M2. It's low on detail - for more information, read the notes on the map.
(Actually the notes are always worth reading, even if they do usually say the same thing. Most importantly you can
easily tell whether the map is a replica or a corrected version.)

I don't have the webspace to host maps at the moment, just send me a contact e-mail at ironwolf@elltel.net and I'll e-mail my Ylaruam map (and any others you may be interested in) to you. I have all the original Savage Coast maps in BMP format zipped up with all the separate layers, as well as Glantri, Karameikos, and Ylaruam. I started on some others, namely because drawing the river systems necessitated doing several maps at once. Unlike the originals, I did not want all the rivers to look slightly different between maps.

Your Norwold map looks good. I thought about doing one myself, but I would have added forests, tundras, and glaciers to it, improving the original and making Norwold what it should be, an Alaskan-style wilderness. Then again, I guess that's Stage Two, right?

Adamantyr

Yay Norwold!

I've always had a soft spot for Norwold, but I never got to DM CM1

tbh I think extrapolating what it really there from the text is going to be a real pig. Going by the text the northern half is covered in small woods (in fact I reckon there is a good case for labelling the entire area light forest!) Also there are supposed to be a number of reasonable rivers and a lot of lakes in virtually every hex. Then you also have a dwarven stronghold to add wherever is appropriate - ugh.

Given the amazing things you have achieved so far I am just going to sit back and await the final glory. (Note to Adamantyr - Thorf always does the published map as is first, then looks to start applying text-based references and dealing with inconsistencies once he has the basics done - this is just the basic Norwold map.) I am more than hahppy to use wherever you put in where you put it - so kep up the absolutely awesome work.

__________________
"If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it might just be a crow."

Thorf-

A question on methods. Looking at the cliffs/escarpments walling in Ylaruam, how do you get the look of two hex symbols sharing the same hex, on each side of the escarpment? I was looking at trying to do a version of the Robrenn map in Dragon 177, but the escarpment/canyon terrain to the north of Robrenn is giving me second thoughts...

Any tips?

Also, could you do a symbol for Shipwrecks without the blue background? That way one could place shiwrecks on any depth of water, coastal or deep sea. Same for the whaling hex... Also, while this may be pushing you ahead of things, you'll need a rock shelter hex for Wallara (Dragon 186/188).


Regards,
Eric Anondson

Sorry, no time to post a map or reply today. I've been busy with work and trying to make wedding arrangements - arguments with the in-laws, etc.

I hope I'll be back on track by tomorrow evening.

*sighs*
Good Luck...

Good luck with that... The positive news is if you bang your head long enough, you don't feel it anymore

__________________
In the year AC995, Traianus Decius Aureus- Praetorian Legate, Equites Laurifer, twice honored with Triumphs, bearer of the Corona Civica, Corona Muralis and Corona Obsidionalis -delivered the motherland from the Thyatian occupation and was raised to the purple by the Praetorian Guard and the Legions. Long may he reign with strength and wisdom.

Per CM1, the clear hexes are presumed to be forest. See Pg 4, "Norwold terrain types". This probably doesn't make sense everywhere, though, esp. at higher lattitudes.


Definitely tundra north of Landsplit, and glaciers in Frosthaven and the northern coast. And remeber in some winters, the whole sea freezes connecting the two with an ice bridge. It would be interesting to see a winter version of NW.

How did I miss that? - But then, it looks as if Thorf did so too as technically they should all be forest... Nice catch Dan

I'd love to see any maps you've worked on. I tried e-mailing that address, but my messages bounced. You can send them to me at [redacted], though.



I know precisely what you mean. I work by the same principle, and I like to apply it between different scales too. That's why I'm working on a revised 24 mile per hex Known World map, because the existing ones from the Cyclopedia and Wrath of the Immortals are too different from the Gazetteer maps to even form a useful base.



As Kheldren correctly stated, adding in the other details is the next step, and I am currently working on that. In this case, CM1 itself has some description, and there are other references for terrain in the form of the Dawn of the Emperors 72 mile per hex map and non-hex maps from the Poor Wizard's Almanac. I'm using all of those to fill in the blank areas and revise the map.

Stage Two of my project is something else entirely, but feel free to keep on guessing.


That one took me a while to work out. You have to use clipping masks.

1. Draw the contour itself with the contour brushes.
2. Copy the countour and lock the original one, then press CTRL F to paste a new copy in exactly the same place as the original.
3. Select all hexes that the countour intersects, and then make them a group. If you're not sure if a hex is being intersected or not, select it anyway.
4. Copy the group and press CTRL F to paste a new copy of the group on top.
5. Change the symbol to the right symbol for the top of the plateau. If there are multiple symbols, use the direct select tool to choose individual hexes and change them a few at a time.
6. Select the copied contour line and the top group of symbols, and press CTRL 7, or use the menu to make the clipping mask. Lock the result in place.
7. Lastly, using the direct select tool to help, select the correct symbols for the bottom of the contour. Don't forget to do all the hexes you grouped together, because some will be almost completely hidden under the countour.

Hope that helps.

By the way, by some strange coincidence, the map you mentioned was also the map I was working on.




Done, done and not done but on my list.

Actually, the former two have been done for a long time, because I discovered for myself that they needed to be changed. But I haven't gotten round to updating the files online yet...


Hehe, I think the poor little smiley man is doing it enough for all of us. Vicarious head-bashing.


Nah, I didn't miss it (yet). I just did the original map based on visual information only.

Heh!

Fantastic. I had just completed most of it, but moved on to finish the hexes for the rest of the Savage Coast and Orc's Head Peninsula at 8 miles/hex. I still have to do roads and borders. I'll give the escarpment technique a try soon!

Oh, and I spotted a new hex symbol. Simply called "Mountain", not plural. It is found at Rochas dos Gatos, south of Bellayne.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

It wouldn't be an interactive map, would it? (Growing ever more curious...)

One with an adjustable scale from 72 mile per hex up to 8 mile per hex?

You _could_ build a dynamic map, a la mapquest, all SVG based if you had enough time & willing web programmers: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/index.html (SVG script, a proposed way to create vector graphics content on the fly). This is of course merely an idea, one which would take nearly a decade to complete, and wouldn't garner much more than what Thorf is doing here. The worst part is that currently there exists only one browser-plugin that can display SVG correctly (work is still on-going for mozilla built-in support http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/ ): http://www.adobe.com/svg/main.html If you need an svg viewer for a *nix OS, try squiggle: http://xml.apache.org/batik/svgviewer.html

Awful headache today, but thankfully I am a few maps ahead of schedule.




I've been working on this area too. The Dragon maps are my fallback for when I don't have a lot of time, because they are small and easily done in a couple of hours each.



Good catch! Although it does bring up the question of how exactly that hex is different from regular mountain hexes, since a single normal mountain hex in the middle of plains or other terrain also seems to indicate a single mountain.

In any case, I'll make that hex some time this week, probably.

Good ideas about Stage Two, but no one has quite hit upon it yet. Having maps at all three of the major scales is indeed one of my long term goals, though.

On the other hand, I do wonder about the value of the 72 mile per hex scale. It seems to me that it is far too large a scale to provide anything but the most general terrain information - especially when it comes to areas like the Known World and the Savage Coast, which have numerous small countries.

But we'll see. I might well end up replacing that scale with line art maps or something.